Yeah, God forbid rational thought be brought into all this. I think it might be worthwhile to actually listen to what Bin Laden has to say, considering we are NOT GOING TO WIN A WAR ON TERRORISM. Just like we couldn't win a guerilla war in Vietnam. Who's being idealistic?

Sorry...call me crazy, but I like to examine all the information available to me. Most notably, letters from our enemy to US.

And there is nothing liberal about citing a Bin Laden quote. I'm not sympathizing with him...not that that would be liberal either.

MCET - The fact that you find ANYTHING RATIONAL in Osama bin Laden's messages and use them to base a foreign policy argument is astounding to me.

You DIDN'T know what I was talking about. Wow. You're a special one, Katie. Try to follow along...You took the Sweden quote as if it was coming from me....as if I was saying why not attack Sweden. I was quoting Bin Laden. Big difference. And the fact that this is the second time I'm having to explain this...wow. Read what I posted from him. You'll see what I mean.

I am a very nice person. But I little patience with people without appreciation for the horrible, crushing reality of war (I don't care who you know over there) and a lack of ability to function in nuanced scenerios. W and most who still support him are prime examples of that. Isreal is why we're being attacked. We go hands off with Isreal, OBL will call off the jihad. It's that simple. But it's not going to happen.

And I never said I'm "pro-Jew"...there you go again. Which doesn't mean I'm not...but I didn't say that. I just think that our country would be MUCH safer...both in reality and in what we percieve...if we got our nose out of Isreal.

MCET - You sound like a very nice person. Not. You make this issue extremely personal...which is very telling. Apparently your reading comprehension is below the 3rd grade level if you say that "I don't know what you're talking about." I realize that Islamofacists don't hate us solely for our freedom. No sh*t. I never said otherwise. Good grief. Like I said, we have a very LONG and intertwined history with the Muslim world, particularily in the middle east. I've seen interviews with Tenent and our intel was NOT BASED SOLELY ON CURVEBALL. What do you say to the Russian and British intel that came in during that time period?

I was never a history major in college, but I've read a significant amount about OBL and his rise to power in the radical muslim world. Part of him DOES hate the west b/c of our "meddling" with matters in Israel/Palestine, but yes, he and animals like him hate the west b/c we do not conform to strict Islamic law...yes, that INCLUDES US BEING FREE.

Also, you say you're Pro-Jewish, yet you seem to be against us helping Israel out. What do you suppose we do, let half the Middle Eastern countries wipe Israel out (like they've wanted to do since inception of the Jewish state!)?

Good to hear you can't talk with me anymore...I know how frustrating it is to talk to someone with common sense and a bit of a perspective on middle eastern history BEFORE 2001. lol!

well-argued.

and my long paragraphs aren't written for people with your attention span. and clearly, you have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

as well, this thread is dead with the exception of katie and me, so what's the point in reading?

again...well-argued. you have a lot ot be proud of.

From Bin Laden:

"Oh the American people, I address these words to you regarding the optimal manner of avoiding another Manhattan, and regarding the war, its causes, and its consequences. But before this, I say to you: Security is one of the important pillars of human life, and free men do not take their security lightly, contrary to Bush's claim that we hate freedom. Let him explain why we did not attack Sweden, for example. Clearly, those who hate freedom have no pride, unlike the 19 [suicide hijackers of 9/11], may Allah have mercy on them. We have been fighting you because we are free men who do not remain silent in the face of injustice. We want to restore our [Islamic] nation's freedom. Just as you violate our security, we violate yours.
But I am amazed at you. Although we have entered the fourth year after the events of 9/11, Bush is still practicing distortion and deception against you and he is still concealing the true cause from you. Consequently, the motives for its reoccurrence still exist ...

We had no difficulty dealing with Bush and his administration, because it resembles the regimes in our [Arab] countries, half of which are ruled by the military, and the other half are ruled by the sons of kings and presidents with whom we have had a lot of experience. Among both types, there are many who are known for their conceit, arrogance, greed, and for taking money dishonestly.

This resemblance began with the visit of Bush Sr. to the region. While some of our people were dazzled by the U.S. and hoped that these visits would influence our countries, it was he who was influenced by these monarchic and military regimes. He envied them for remaining in their positions for decades, while embezzling the nation's public funds with no supervision whatsoever. He bequeathed tyranny and the suppression of liberties to his son and they called it the Patriot Act, under the pretext of the war on terrorism."

Katie...the fact that you don't know what I'm talking about clearly reveals that you know very little about the issue between the US and the Muslim world. That quote was Bin Laden's. A very well-publicized quote. It was in response to Bush's claim that "they hate us for our freedom!" OBL was pointing out what a dumbsh*t W is and was letting everybody know that that is/was not the case at all.

I don't think I can discuss this with you anymore, as clearly you're judgement is poor and you're incapable of acknowledging the colossal f-up after f-up by this president. You're right. He's GREAT! GIVE HIM MORE TIME! WE'LL BEAT THOSE BAD PEOPLE!

It's no wonder we're in the position we're in over there. It's people like you who are responsible. In all honesty, I understand why Congress voted for the invasion. First of all...they trusted that the intel was legit...little did they know that it came from CURVEBALL and that Cheney/Bush was manipulating the intel to suit their purpose...TO GO INTO IRAQ. They tailored the intel. Look it up. Do some research. It's there. Tenet said. Powell's Chief of Staff said it. Congress also needs to be reelected and the train was leaving the station on the war, with or without them. They had to vote that way. It sucks that that is how it is, but it is how it is. But you know who DIDN'T vote for the war, right? And who is looking like a genius for it right about now...yup.

But who I can't forgive are the people who reelected George Bush. Simply assinine.

If we're nice to them? Are you kidding? Try if we get out of the their affairs. Are you one of these who simply thinks that they "hate us for our freedom?" I swear to God, it's the most idiotic and ignorant idea I've ever heard. Even Bin Laden laughs at it...I quote, "then why don't we go after Sweden?" They don't like the US because of our foreign policy and our backing of Isreal, of which the US interest is entirely based on MONEY. Period. Do some homework. It's almost entirely about our support for Isreal. I'm simply saying get out of their affairs and they'll leave us alone. But that's not going to happen as long as the heads of all the world banks are Jewish.

MCET - You're right, we should send "civilians" and "peacekeepers" into a bloody civil war in Darfur where thousands upon thousands of innocents are being slaughtered. That makes no sense whatsoever! It's like sending sheep into a slaughter. We need to get NATO troops involved, that's what needs to be done. It's not the SOLE responsility of the U.S...we have bigger problems, like protecting ourselves first! I agree with you though, I think Bush needs to do a bit more for Darfur...however, there's only so much one human can do, and I think right now he's focused on keeping you and I safe.

As for Iraq, Al-Quada was getting medical care from Sadaam's regime. Even democrats (Gore in his now infamous 1992 campaign speech) talked about how Iraq was a breeding ground for terrorists and we needed to take care of it before it became an even larger problem...say, in 10 years. As for North Korea, as far as we know, their GOVERNMENT (unlike Sadaam's) is not harboring terrorists and giving medical care to wounded Al-Qaeda! Also, diplomatic talks seem to be working with this dictator (remember, there's a completely different ideology with communist dictators than islamofascists). The reason we went after iraq and NOT N. Korea is that DIPLOMATIC TALKS ARE SEEMING TO WORK. We couldn't talk to Sadaam diplomatically...remember ALL THE U.N. RESOLUTIONS HE BROKE! When talks completely broke down and Bush and the congress, based on the international intelligence they had, believed we were in danger, they went in a took Sadaam out.

"Axis of Evil"? It's a catch phrase that polls well. What about it? If I'm not mistaken North Korea is in the Axis of Evil, too. We're not going in there guns blazing.

I'm going to say it one more time...IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ATTACK ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER AND THE PENTAGON. NOTHING.

And there is going to be another attack here. Believe it. And continuing to piss off radical Muslims is not the way put an end to it.

There's no comparing Iraq and Darfur. Iraq was a dictatorship. Darfur is not and is in a civil war. There are many ways to engage down there without a major commitment, but W is going hands off. It's shameful.

And those of you saying we have our own problems at home need to get out of your neighborhood more often. It's not all about you. We're all people of the world. You sound like spoiled rotten brats.

katie e...where does it say anywhere here that we should send troops to Darfur? The only comments were made that normal civilians wanted to help, not that we should send troops...have another drink and then get on the boards...

Anon- Yeah, I'm the idiot...not. I'm not the one arguing that we are stretched too thin already...you and the rest of you libtards are! So let me see if I can understand your convoluted logic here, um, we are stretched too thin by going into Iraq, yet you want to send MORE trooops into Darfur. And I'm the ignorant one? Good grief, take a step back and look at your logic!

I say TRADE HER! Just make sure she doesn't get traded back to America ever again, though! Geez, she's so full of $hit. I bet if she really got traded, she'd be $hitting her @$$ off and begging for the next plane out of that $hithole!

okay, actually, I was born under a rock, but that's a minor detail...